Captain Jack "Mary Sue" Sparrow?

[dwgm]

The Mary Sue question is an interesting one. jenthegypsy, new to fanfic (what an adventure lies ahead!!), was asking me what a Mary Sue is, and, coincidentally, a member of little_details asked about the origin of the term. The term apparently dates back to a fanfic story in the Star Trek: The Original Series fandom, which actually had an OFC named Mary Sue. However, this site referenced in a comment in the little_details post has this to say...

She (or he) is created to serve one purpose: wish fulfilment. When a writer invents someone through whom he/she can have fantastic adventures and meet famous people (fictional or real), this character is a Mary Sue. (We don't have a name for the male version -- suggestions?

and that...

storytellers have been rehashing Mary Sue since the dawn of time....

By this definition, most any major canon character would be a Mary Sue, not just original characters. Think about it. Harry Potter? Frodo or Aragorn? And, most especially Jack Sparrow, and all the main characters of Pirates of the Caribbean.

Another referenced article in the little_details post has this to say about Mary Sue's characteristics...

She has better hair, better clothes, better weapons, better brains, better sex, and better karma than anyone else. Even next to the strong and interesting heroines of twentieth-century media and fiction, she stands out. She is singular; she is impossible to ignore.

Now replace "she" with "he", and you've got Jack Sparrow all over.

You could make a case that any main character in any story is a Mary Sue, unless he or she is a true antihero, with characteristics and adventures that serve as dire warnings rather than desirable examples. And who wants to read that, at least most of the time?

It doesn't seem to me that it's possible to write any character and fail to project one's experiences and philosophies through that character, canon or otherwise. And I don't think I am alone in wanting to read stories that are uplifting, and about people who are extraordinary, in one way or another. So it seems to me we're destined to be inundated with Mary Sues, as we have been since people started telling stories.

Comments

[cymbeline.livejournal.com]

Trying to keep an OFC realistic is a challenge...especially when she is paired with said Captain Jack Sparrow. A woman would have to be a Mary Sue to keep up with him!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Yes, I can't see him being interested in anyone ordinary, not for very long. He needs someone fabulous, being so fabulous himself.

[cymbeline.livejournal.com]

It's what makes him so fun to write!

[linaelyn.livejournal.com]

You have a good point, and this post made me think, a lot. In some form, every powerful main character has some of the hallmarks of a Mary Sue, the sense that the reader holds strong identification with the main character.

Odysseus? Mary Sue for all who ever dreamed of adventures.

Juliet AND Romeo? Mary Sues for anyone who crushed on someone their parents disapproved of.

HOWEVER. The problem with Bad Fanfic Mary Sue is that she's unflawed. Captain Jack Sparrow is extraordinary, to be sure. But he's hardly what you'd call flawless. Projecting one's experiences isn't what makes a character a Mary Sue in the traditional sense. It's actually that the Mary Sue is so very perfect that the reader cannot honestly identify with the character, without resort to egomania or immaturity.

Ted & Terry and Johnny, created in Jack Sparrow someone we love to identify with. But we also see that we might fall into some of the same pitfalls that lead Jack into more pain to himself than strictly necessary. Such as a short drop and a sudden stop.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

The problem with Bad Fanfic Mary Sue is that she's unflawed.

Ah! But as athersgeo says here, a Mary Sue can also be Perfectly Tragic, Perfectly Flawed, or Perfectly Evil.

I agree with porridgebird's comment below... "over the decades, the definition of MS has expanded so far beyond the original that there are some who say ANY OC is a Mary Sue." I've noticed that strain of thought among the writers around here on LJ (probably because that's mostly where I read and comment) and it bothers me not only because a couple of my plotlines feature OC's, but, more importantly, because that attitude puts a constraint on every writer, causing them to hesitate to post stories that include OC's, or even create OC's at all, especially if the character plays a major role in a story. And when you have writers of the high caliber of many I read around here, it's a sad thing.

[athersgeo.livejournal.com]

*blinks*

*does a double take*

*reads own post*

Oooh. I remember... *looks sheepish*

Very thought provoking post here, though - and all the replies :)

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm..... my understanding has always been that a Mary Sue -- by definition -- is not a canon character. But (in fanfic) she becomes the Star of the Show. She's not always perfect or even "better" -- a lot of the time she's got big fat angsty problems that the canon characters are compelled to fix (usually with their genitalia). She's an author insert and the story is about her. The canon folk just co-star or play supporting roles

See what I think has happened is that, over the decades, the definition of MS has expanded so far beyond the original that there are some who say ANY OC is a Mary Sue. But I'm remembering back when it pretty much started, in the Trek fandom ("Yeoman Mary Sue"), after the first series ended & before the first movie was even in the works. That's where I first heard the term, and it was much more specific than it is now. It's way overused these days, imo.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

We don't have a name for the male version

Traditionally, "Gary Stu."

[radiumx.livejournal.com]

I always liked "Rock Hardstrong" myself. ;-D

[cacopheny.livejournal.com]

I think people over-do the Mary Sue thing. Way over-do. Mary Sues are generally poorly written, unbelievable, transparent, and (often completely) without faults-- or with stupid faults. Characters like quirky Jack Sparrow aren't Mary Sues because they have plenty of faults, they're very well-rounded, and they have plausablility. Also, if you tackle a "super-char" Mary Sue (the better-everything), and you write it *well*, and give his/her personality a lot of depth, that negates the whole issue.

I wouldn't worry about it. v.v

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

As I said in a couple of other replies, the reason I think the expansion of the definition is a Very Bad Thing is because it makes good authors hesitate to create OC's, especially if they'll play a big role in a fic. I have a new online friend, too, who has a really wonderful story posted on ff.net, but because it has an OFC, she could be hesitant about posting it here, and she shouldn't be! The OFC is interesting in her own right, and has a major role, but doesn't take over and reduce the canon characters to supporting roles. It's more like a crossover, her story with theirs.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

You see a lot of Mary-Sue-izing of canon in Harry Potter fics... where Hermione suddenly cuts loose, turns goth, straightens her hair (dyes it black with red tips, or some such), gets her naval pierced, grows giant boobs, dons black leather micro-mini and stiletto heels... and everyone of the male persuasion at Hogwarts falls flat on his face when she walks by. Including the professors. But this, of course, is not Hermione. It's sneaky Mary Sue in disguise.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that link. Really a great discussion on the subject!

Yes, I find the idea of Elizabeth being a Mary Sue outrageous, and yet I've heard it said several times in the last year.

[wcspegasus.livejournal.com]

The easiest way, hands down, to tell if the character is a mary sue, is if you have to change basic canon facts to make her fit.

For example. Using an actual MS I once met in a fic. If the Hogwarts students are tormenting or being hostile to the MS and Dumbledore steps in to defend her.

This changes and mutates canon to make the MS character "special." Because how many times has Dumbledore left Harry (the feature character of the books) to deal with his torment alone. Heck, just read Chamber of Secrets and you'll understand that Dumbledore isn't about to step in like that for anyone.

Or the Mary Sues who become a 10th walker in Lord of the Rings. That's a basic canon fact that's actually referenced as being important in the book at least once (9 walkers against 9 nazgul).

That is the easiest way to tell if a character is just an OC (who is used to enhance the story and can be quite useful) or a MS (which undermines the very basics of canon and is actually detrimental to the plot).

And canon characters can be turned into sues as well. Any massive, inadequately explained change to a canon character makes them a Mary Sue. Yeah, I've read fics that were set in the future and where the canon characters were very different from how they are in the books. But backstory generally adequately covers that. I'm talking the characters who overnight become an almost completely different person, with no more explanation than...they felt like it...or something like that. Those characters are actually Sues, they just take on the name of a canon character to disguise the fact.

And if you think about it. Almost every other definition you see out there, fits under this one in some way.

Canon characters can be Mary Sues from their beginnings (Hermione has often been IDed as one and several of the characters in Clive Cussler's novels are Sues/Stus as well), but since they're part of the canon, they're acceptable.

The fact is, if you take the time to create your own canon, you can put any character you want into it. But if you're playing with someone else's canon, you'd better make your characters fit.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

The fact is, if you take the time to create your own canon, you can put any character you want into it. But if you're playing with someone else's canon, you'd better make your characters fit.

I think you're right, as readers of fanfiction are THERE because of the canon characters, and an OC should enhance their story, not take the focus away from them.

[hereswith.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, at least, a canon character, who is basically in character, can never be a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu, for that matter, quite simply because they are canon characters. So the idea of viewing Elizabeth, for example, as a Mary Sue, just seems absurd to me. It's a shame if the debate about Mary Sues makes writers hesitate to post their work, though, or if the term Mary Sue is being used for OFCs in general. An OFC need not be a Mary Sue. As far as I'm concerned, the prime characteristic of a Mary Sue is that she comes in, takes over and leaves the canon characters floundering in her wake, so to speak. Also, it's the odd names, the multi-coloured eyes, the implausibility of their backgrounds and reactions, and the being perfect at everything, that usually bothers me (and I do think you can have someone be extraordinary without them being perfect).

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I do think you can have someone be extraordinary without them being perfect

Did you read the link fabu left in her comment? It points out that female characters are often labeled Mary Sues in spite of the fact that a male character doing the same things (being heroic, or otherwise extraordinary) would not be labeled so. I think that's a dead on assessment: just look at Elizabeth being labeled sometimes, where Jack and Will never are!

It's a shame if the debate about Mary Sues makes writers hesitate to post their work, though, or if the term Mary Sue is being used for OFCs in general.

I think writers hesitate to even write them into stories a lot of times, and that's a shame because an OC can really enhance a story. One of my favorite parts of fabu's recent Benedictions was an OC, and Elizabeth's interaction with her just seemed to broaden the story and make it that much more real. These canon characters don't live in a vacuum: other people are going to come in an out of their lives, and one of the great things about fanfiction is the freedom it gives us to explore that.

[torn-eledhwen.livejournal.com]

Having read through everyone else's comments, I think my own conclusion would be that a canon character is rarely a Mary Sue in the true sense of the phrase. A Mary Sue in fanfic is a character that takes over from canon, and the story becomes about her (or him). If you're writing canon characters, then the story already is about them, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the character! But that doesn't mean that all OCs are Mary Sues, because a good writer can create an OC who has a major role in the action but still lets the canon characters be canonical. I think Mary Sues tend to have an adverse effect on the canon characters, making them do things OOC because the Mary Sue is just so beautiful/talented/kind etc. that the canon character can't help him/herself from falling at said Mary Sue's feet (eg. LOTR "Tenth Walker" fics where Aragorn forgets he's been betrothed to Arwen for forty years and falls head over heels in love with some silver-haired, violet-eyed teenager).

I think the saddest thing about the Mary Sue debate generally is that it has put some people off creating OCs for use in fanfic, and that others will denounce any OC as a Mary Sue automatically. Neither is a Good Thing.

As a footnote, I'd add that I don't think Jack's a Mary Sue, even by the "Perfectly Flawed" criteria. I'd say he's far from perfectly flawed, and far from perfect - though he is utterly fascinating. His flaws are real ones - he's selfish, greedy, lustful, and prepared to mess with other people for his own benefit. On the other hand he can be generous and he does have his own set of (equally flawed) morals. He's larger than life, so not exactly realistic - but I wouldn't call him a Mary Sue (any more than I would any of the other characters in PotC).

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I don't think Jack is a Mary Sue either, but that bit in that one essay--

...better hair, better clothes, better weapons, better brains, better sex, and better karma than anyone else... [He] stands out... is singular... is impossible to ignore

--made me think of him. As I said, the definition has expanded far beyond the badly written OFC.

[trinityday.livejournal.com]

Some people think that canon characters can be Mary Sues, others don't. Even keeping in mind that statement, that storytellers have been writing/talking about her since the dawn of time, keep in mind that just because you're a storyteller doesn't mean you're any good at it. A differentiation for me has always been a) how suited the character is to the story and b) how good the story is. If it's a good story and the character fits into said good story, then even if they're a bit on the unbelievable side, even if they share x number of characteristics with Mary Sue, I tend not to mind.

Besides, Jack has flaws. He's made stupid mistakes (ie, trusting Barbossa), he's grown as a result. He also doesn't trust anymore as a result. He's quite believable in that, which is a key concept in creating a real character as opposed to a Mary Sue.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

See my comment to torn_eledhwen on Jack/Mary Sue.

And I'm with you about good stories and good OC's that fit in.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

I think there are many canon characters I would call Mary Sues, but that it becomes even harder there than in fanfic to determine whether or not a character is a Mary Sue.

One hint (though not in itself enough to deem a character a Mary Sue) is that the rules of the universe written is broken for her/him. An example of this is LM Montgomery's Emily books. They are set in a realistic, early 20th century Canadian environment. Yet the heroine foretells the future - a gift that does not fit into the described universe. She also has "purplish-grey" eyes, which, again, is something that doesn't fit the setting.

Now, Emily still has enough good and credible character traits to perhaps escape the Mary Sue fold. But there's no doubt in my mind that she would have been a better character if the author hadn't gone against the rules of her own universe to make the character "special".

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I think the human tendency to jump on the labeling bandwagon is often taken too far, and this Mary Sue thing is really a prime example. I think the world would be a poorer place without the Emilys and Aylas and Harry Potters. Not every story or every character is going to have universal appeal. I feel, to be fair to authors, new or experienced, we need to avoid labels that hinder or even squash the urge to tell a tale, and simply judge each story on its own merits. Admittedly, with everyone having computer access, this results in sites like Fanfiction.net, where one must sift through a great deal of dross to find the gold. But maybe the dross-writer of today will be the best-selling author of tomorrow. It could happen!

[leblacklabel.livejournal.com]

For long years have I said that Harry Potter is a Mary Sue by definition. Take that as you like it, I love Rowling's work and am fascinated by the mystery she manages to keep on so many levels.

I think most main characters in original works are Mary Sues by definition.

Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White. They're stupendous Mary Sues but their stories are greater than they are even if they are the 'center of it all' or 'the star of the show'.

Satine in Moulin Rouge has to be a Mary Sue. Despite that she's a harlot and well into using her body to attract financiers to the theater... women want to be her, and men wish they had her. Yes she is tragically ill. But by what's been said about Mary Suedom in the ficworld, that just adds to her 'charm' and makes loving her all the more wonderful.

I think it's terribly limiting to worry about writing Mary Sues. I think the story told is more important than one's fixation on whether or not the author is using a character to "live through". I think the quality of the written work is more important than any sword-wielding, emerald-eyed vixen could ever be. If the writing is bad, it's bad. It's noticeable. I stop reading and go my merry way if it doesn't hold my attention.