Captain Jack "Mary Sue" Sparrow?

[dwgm]

The Mary Sue question is an interesting one. jenthegypsy, new to fanfic (what an adventure lies ahead!!), was asking me what a Mary Sue is, and, coincidentally, a member of little_details asked about the origin of the term. The term apparently dates back to a fanfic story in the Star Trek: The Original Series fandom, which actually had an OFC named Mary Sue. However, this site referenced in a comment in the little_details post has this to say...

She (or he) is created to serve one purpose: wish fulfilment. When a writer invents someone through whom he/she can have fantastic adventures and meet famous people (fictional or real), this character is a Mary Sue. (We don't have a name for the male version -- suggestions?

and that...

storytellers have been rehashing Mary Sue since the dawn of time....

By this definition, most any major canon character would be a Mary Sue, not just original characters. Think about it. Harry Potter? Frodo or Aragorn? And, most especially Jack Sparrow, and all the main characters of Pirates of the Caribbean.

Another referenced article in the little_details post has this to say about Mary Sue's characteristics...

She has better hair, better clothes, better weapons, better brains, better sex, and better karma than anyone else. Even next to the strong and interesting heroines of twentieth-century media and fiction, she stands out. She is singular; she is impossible to ignore.

Now replace "she" with "he", and you've got Jack Sparrow all over.

You could make a case that any main character in any story is a Mary Sue, unless he or she is a true antihero, with characteristics and adventures that serve as dire warnings rather than desirable examples. And who wants to read that, at least most of the time?

It doesn't seem to me that it's possible to write any character and fail to project one's experiences and philosophies through that character, canon or otherwise. And I don't think I am alone in wanting to read stories that are uplifting, and about people who are extraordinary, in one way or another. So it seems to me we're destined to be inundated with Mary Sues, as we have been since people started telling stories.

Comments

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Can't remember which one said it, or which story at impofperversity (they are so very prolific, as you know) but it was either tessabeth or viva_gloria, who are, as you know, two of the best authors in the fandom, with 100% spot-on characterizations at all times, at least IMO. That one really caused me to say, "Huh??", but I've run across others, too, though I can't remember who or where at this point.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

Hmmm! I'll have to look for that. But... it suddenly occurs to me... in combining two canons, as they often do (so very brilliantly) would a character from one canon be an OC (kinda sorta) in the other? And a possible MS in THAT respect? Now this is getting too twisted and making my brain hurt. I think it's more likely that the "expanded" definition strikes again.

But yeah, I'll look for it; it's hard to say without seeing what they're talking about.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how in-character Shaftoe is in their stuff, as I still haven't read the book, but I'd bet it's fairly spot on, as I've not read anything OOC by them, ever. I don't think you can call either Sparrow or Shaftoe an OC. Crossover fics are a specialized catagory, in this case, and if it's done well, all canon characters in both universes will be in character, and outside Mary Sue criteria.

It's making my brain hurt too. It's such a subjective and convoluted subject.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

BUT please don't hit me if Shaftoe wasn't from another canon... if they'd made him up entirely... would he be a Mary Sue?

OW! brain just broke... think I blew a head gasket

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Well, he's pretty perfect, but no more so than Sparrow. They're counterparts that way. So I'd say no.

[radiumx.livejournal.com]

I think he's a Mary Sue regardless of his origin. Especially if he's acting OOC (which he isn't?)

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Holy cats! Have you been reading it??

[viva-gloria.livejournal.com]

I think we've both said it at various times, and about both of 'em: but it's more in the sense of projecting one's own desires onto (into?) a non-original character. I mean, I'm not 100% convinced that canon-Sparrow and canon-Shaftoe would not simply (a) kill one another (b) sneer at one another (c) ROFL at the notion of getting together in a slashtastic way. But I am 100% convinced that, if I was Jack Shaftoe, I would leap upon Jack Sparrow and ravage him for chapters at a time. And I feel I am not alone in this. *prods co-author*

[viva-gloria.livejournal.com]

if I was Jack Shaftoe, I would leap upon Jack Sparrow and ravage him for chapters at a time.
And vice versa, of course. Yay for vice.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

But I am 100% convinced that, if I was Jack Shaftoe, I would leap upon Jack Sparrow and ravage him for chapters at a time.

And thank God for it!!

More, please? *fixes puppydog eyes on you*

But seriously, this projection of oneself into a character, how can one help doing that? To write a character effectively, doesn't one have be able to determine actions and reactions in the light of one's own experiences? No matter if the character is the hero or the villian, there has to be that connection.

Perhaps that's different than using a character to project ones fantasy life into a story, but there's a fine line there somewhere.

[viva-gloria.livejournal.com]

It's definitely a very fine line. I can't imagine writing from the point of view (3rd or 1st person) of a character with whom I couldn't sympathise. And I don't think -- apart from the whole Slash Question -- that we're warping Shaftoe or Sparrow unreasonably. bwa ha ha ha ha. I think I'd define Mary-Sueing as when the character has become more like the writer than like the original canon person -- that's completely off the cuff, though.

And as for More, please?: am just about to head back to the laptop and edit chapter 41 ...

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

...am just about to head back to the laptop and edit chapter 41 ...

*rubs hands together gleefully*

Happy Saturday, indeed!

Hope all is well over there in Merrie Olde. It's been cold (for us) and raining here again, a couple of inches--the pool's clear up to the top! Saves on the water bill, of course.

[tessabeth.livejournal.com]

*prods co-author*

*co-author rouses sleepily, displaying horrendous case of bed-head*

Wha'? Oh, no, not alone. And not only Sparrow.

Gloria darling, you're depressingly right, of course; canon Shaftoe wouldn't have a bar of it; besides which, he's obsessed with horrid icygirl Eliza. If I Mary-Sue at all, it's in the additional-to-canon parts of Shaftoe. Because Shaftoe's as straight as a die; we're warping him, there's no two ways about it. It can't be anything but non-canon; which *isn't*, at all, the same thing as out-of-character, of course. (She said, providing herself with a lovely Out.)

I think the thing that saves Shaftoe from total MS is that he's got so many wonderful faults. He's grubby, and he can't read, and he's got a terrible tendency to do frankly stupid things, thanks to the Imp; also, half the time, hello: his penis has been amputated*. He's a long way from perfect, in fact in real life he'd probably drive you insane; the point is, that *Sparrow* finds him perfect :)

Shaz, when you do get round to reading it, you're going to interpret real-Shaftoe in light of impofperversity-Shaftoe anyway; if you see anything out of character, you'll probably (being such a darling, and all) put that down a faux pas on the part of dear Mr Stephenson :)

*Oh, god, have just had hideous thought; perhaps this makes him an even more perfect recipient for self-projection. Shit, that one's worthy of therapy.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Shaz, when you do get round to reading it, you're going to interpret real-Shaftoe in light of impofperversity-Shaftoe anyway; if you see anything out of character, you'll probably (being such a darling, and all) put that down a faux pas on the part of dear Mr Stephenson :)

Oh, there's no doubt of it.

Plus there's no Jack Sparrow in it. So remiss of Stephenson.