Captain Jack "Mary Sue" Sparrow?

[dwgm]

The Mary Sue question is an interesting one. jenthegypsy, new to fanfic (what an adventure lies ahead!!), was asking me what a Mary Sue is, and, coincidentally, a member of little_details asked about the origin of the term. The term apparently dates back to a fanfic story in the Star Trek: The Original Series fandom, which actually had an OFC named Mary Sue. However, this site referenced in a comment in the little_details post has this to say...

She (or he) is created to serve one purpose: wish fulfilment. When a writer invents someone through whom he/she can have fantastic adventures and meet famous people (fictional or real), this character is a Mary Sue. (We don't have a name for the male version -- suggestions?

and that...

storytellers have been rehashing Mary Sue since the dawn of time....

By this definition, most any major canon character would be a Mary Sue, not just original characters. Think about it. Harry Potter? Frodo or Aragorn? And, most especially Jack Sparrow, and all the main characters of Pirates of the Caribbean.

Another referenced article in the little_details post has this to say about Mary Sue's characteristics...

She has better hair, better clothes, better weapons, better brains, better sex, and better karma than anyone else. Even next to the strong and interesting heroines of twentieth-century media and fiction, she stands out. She is singular; she is impossible to ignore.

Now replace "she" with "he", and you've got Jack Sparrow all over.

You could make a case that any main character in any story is a Mary Sue, unless he or she is a true antihero, with characteristics and adventures that serve as dire warnings rather than desirable examples. And who wants to read that, at least most of the time?

It doesn't seem to me that it's possible to write any character and fail to project one's experiences and philosophies through that character, canon or otherwise. And I don't think I am alone in wanting to read stories that are uplifting, and about people who are extraordinary, in one way or another. So it seems to me we're destined to be inundated with Mary Sues, as we have been since people started telling stories.

Comments

[cymbeline.livejournal.com]

Trying to keep an OFC realistic is a challenge...especially when she is paired with said Captain Jack Sparrow. A woman would have to be a Mary Sue to keep up with him!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Yes, I can't see him being interested in anyone ordinary, not for very long. He needs someone fabulous, being so fabulous himself.

[cymbeline.livejournal.com]

It's what makes him so fun to write!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Ain't it the truth?!!

[linaelyn.livejournal.com]

You have a good point, and this post made me think, a lot. In some form, every powerful main character has some of the hallmarks of a Mary Sue, the sense that the reader holds strong identification with the main character.

Odysseus? Mary Sue for all who ever dreamed of adventures.

Juliet AND Romeo? Mary Sues for anyone who crushed on someone their parents disapproved of.

HOWEVER. The problem with Bad Fanfic Mary Sue is that she's unflawed. Captain Jack Sparrow is extraordinary, to be sure. But he's hardly what you'd call flawless. Projecting one's experiences isn't what makes a character a Mary Sue in the traditional sense. It's actually that the Mary Sue is so very perfect that the reader cannot honestly identify with the character, without resort to egomania or immaturity.

Ted & Terry and Johnny, created in Jack Sparrow someone we love to identify with. But we also see that we might fall into some of the same pitfalls that lead Jack into more pain to himself than strictly necessary. Such as a short drop and a sudden stop.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm..... my understanding has always been that a Mary Sue -- by definition -- is not a canon character. But (in fanfic) she becomes the Star of the Show. She's not always perfect or even "better" -- a lot of the time she's got big fat angsty problems that the canon characters are compelled to fix (usually with their genitalia). She's an author insert and the story is about her. The canon folk just co-star or play supporting roles

See what I think has happened is that, over the decades, the definition of MS has expanded so far beyond the original that there are some who say ANY OC is a Mary Sue. But I'm remembering back when it pretty much started, in the Trek fandom ("Yeoman Mary Sue"), after the first series ended & before the first movie was even in the works. That's where I first heard the term, and it was much more specific than it is now. It's way overused these days, imo.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

We don't have a name for the male version

Traditionally, "Gary Stu."

[cacopheny.livejournal.com]

I think people over-do the Mary Sue thing. Way over-do. Mary Sues are generally poorly written, unbelievable, transparent, and (often completely) without faults-- or with stupid faults. Characters like quirky Jack Sparrow aren't Mary Sues because they have plenty of faults, they're very well-rounded, and they have plausablility. Also, if you tackle a "super-char" Mary Sue (the better-everything), and you write it *well*, and give his/her personality a lot of depth, that negates the whole issue.

I wouldn't worry about it. v.v

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

You see a lot of Mary-Sue-izing of canon in Harry Potter fics... where Hermione suddenly cuts loose, turns goth, straightens her hair (dyes it black with red tips, or some such), gets her naval pierced, grows giant boobs, dons black leather micro-mini and stiletto heels... and everyone of the male persuasion at Hogwarts falls flat on his face when she walks by. Including the professors. But this, of course, is not Hermione. It's sneaky Mary Sue in disguise.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

The problem with Bad Fanfic Mary Sue is that she's unflawed.

Ah! But as athersgeo says here, a Mary Sue can also be Perfectly Tragic, Perfectly Flawed, or Perfectly Evil.

I agree with porridgebird's comment below... "over the decades, the definition of MS has expanded so far beyond the original that there are some who say ANY OC is a Mary Sue." I've noticed that strain of thought among the writers around here on LJ (probably because that's mostly where I read and comment) and it bothers me not only because a couple of my plotlines feature OC's, but, more importantly, because that attitude puts a constraint on every writer, causing them to hesitate to post stories that include OC's, or even create OC's at all, especially if the character plays a major role in a story. And when you have writers of the high caliber of many I read around here, it's a sad thing.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Jack Sparrow or Will Turner are both much more likely candidates for authorial inserts

Precisely. So a character that is the author's "wish fulfillment" or "projection" isn't necessarily a Mary Sue. As porridgebird said, the definition has expanded way beyond the original, and I think the current iteration causes good authors to hesitate to write OC's, which is a shame.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, but it's no Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) if an author creates a self-insert to star in an original piece of work. It's when they try to cram their OC into someone else's work, to overshadow existing canon (damaging or totally destroying existing canon in the process). That's the thing.

So, no I don't agree with dismissing canon-folk as MS. That's one of the places I think the term is totally misused.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

As I said in a couple of other replies, the reason I think the expansion of the definition is a Very Bad Thing is because it makes good authors hesitate to create OC's, especially if they'll play a big role in a fic. I have a new online friend, too, who has a really wonderful story posted on ff.net, but because it has an OFC, she could be hesitant about posting it here, and she shouldn't be! The OFC is interesting in her own right, and has a major role, but doesn't take over and reduce the canon characters to supporting roles. It's more like a crossover, her story with theirs.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with dismissing canon-folk as MS. That's one of the places I think the term is totally misused.

And yet I've seen comments by some of the best authors indicating they've made a Mary Sue of a canon character. If they are in character, how can they be Mary Sues?

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

A canon character, who is IN character? I don't get it how this could be a MS. Do you have an example? (now I'm curious)

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Can't remember which one said it, or which story at impofperversity (they are so very prolific, as you know) but it was either tessabeth or viva_gloria, who are, as you know, two of the best authors in the fandom, with 100% spot-on characterizations at all times, at least IMO. That one really caused me to say, "Huh??", but I've run across others, too, though I can't remember who or where at this point.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

Hmmm! I'll have to look for that. But... it suddenly occurs to me... in combining two canons, as they often do (so very brilliantly) would a character from one canon be an OC (kinda sorta) in the other? And a possible MS in THAT respect? Now this is getting too twisted and making my brain hurt. I think it's more likely that the "expanded" definition strikes again.

But yeah, I'll look for it; it's hard to say without seeing what they're talking about.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how in-character Shaftoe is in their stuff, as I still haven't read the book, but I'd bet it's fairly spot on, as I've not read anything OOC by them, ever. I don't think you can call either Sparrow or Shaftoe an OC. Crossover fics are a specialized catagory, in this case, and if it's done well, all canon characters in both universes will be in character, and outside Mary Sue criteria.

It's making my brain hurt too. It's such a subjective and convoluted subject.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that link. Really a great discussion on the subject!

Yes, I find the idea of Elizabeth being a Mary Sue outrageous, and yet I've heard it said several times in the last year.

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

BUT please don't hit me if Shaftoe wasn't from another canon... if they'd made him up entirely... would he be a Mary Sue?

OW! brain just broke... think I blew a head gasket

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Well, he's pretty perfect, but no more so than Sparrow. They're counterparts that way. So I'd say no.

[athersgeo.livejournal.com]

*blinks*

*does a double take*

*reads own post*

Oooh. I remember... *looks sheepish*

Very thought provoking post here, though - and all the replies :)

[radiumx.livejournal.com]

I always liked "Rock Hardstrong" myself. ;-D

[radiumx.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, but it's no Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) if an author creates a self-insert to star in an original piece of work.

I've always believed the same - A Mary/Gary is only such if they're trying to make it un-obvious but fail miserably.

A group of friends who did not go to the same high school as I used to write a serial web piece called "Self-Extraction". This chronicled the adventures of a squad of assassins hired by literary aficionados to 'extract' particularly persistent or annoying 'self-inserted' Mary/Garys from their favorite TV shows, comics, and books.

[radiumx.livejournal.com]

I think he's a Mary Sue regardless of his origin. Especially if he's acting OOC (which he isn't?)