Pirate!Recs, and ooooh! Meta on Elizabeth and Norrington

[dwgm]

Recs:

woolymonkey has written a hilarious pair of post-Locker fics, First Nut Out of the Locker (from Jack's pov) and Second Nut Out of the Locker: Like Nuts for Bananas (from Barbossa's pov). They are slashy, yes, but sooooo much more than that.

bravenewcentury wrote, per my request on her "Give me a topic..." meme, of Pirates and Pietists, about religion in the era of PotC -- very interesting post, as are artaxastra's comments.

And then, fabu posted some meta on female characters yesterday, calling into question fans who label female fanfic characters "sluts" or "whores" for sexual behaviors, anything from mere flirting onward, that would be given a pass, or even be applauded, in a male character. Post and comments (which are well past 250 now) are really interesting.

Her post isn't specific to PotC, but there is a great deal of discussion of Elizabeth's flirtatious behavior with Jack in Dead Man's Chest, and whether Elizabeth then has the high moral ground and any right to call Norrington on working for Beckett as she does in AWE.

Elizabeth's flirting with Jack in DMC is, yes, Elizabeth using her feminine wiles to get Jack to answer her challenge to be the good man she trusts he is. He starts it, in both the "Persuade me" scene and in the "Curiosity" scene, and she gives him tit for tat, playful - in a way she never is with either Will or Norrington -- with a serious undertone. In their final encounter, she initiates the seduction as time is of the essence and her reasons involve life and death: he must act the good man or they are all doomed.

There are some vocal critics of Elizabeth's behavior in DMC, seeing her flirtation as immoral since she's engaged to Will, and her actions in kissing Jack and chaining him to the mast as betrayal and murder.

Now, as I understand it, flirtation was practically an artform in the society in which Elizabeth Swann moved. It's likely she was coached in the rules pertaining to same as she prepared to make her debut as a young woman of marriageable age. A woman had very few weapons at her disposal in those times, but that was one of them. It's true that she's engaged to Will, but on the other hand it's no random male she was flirting with, it was Jack, a man who saved her life at least twice, a man with whom she was marooned on an island alone, a man she feels she can trust, when it comes down to brass tacks. He's also a man who knows the rules as well as she does. I find their verbal sparring completely in character, and not inconsistent with behaviors condoned at that time.

As for her chaining him up as Kraken bait, I can't see that she had much alternative if she wanted to give the rest of them a reasonable chance at escaping death. She was right: the thing was after Jack, and his plan to use the heart to control Jones and the Kraken had failed, thanks to Norrington. Due to Jack lying to her about having nothing to do with Will's sojourn on the Flying Dutchman, and Jack's efforts to abscond while his crew and friends fought the monster for him, Elizabeth decided she couldn't trust him to do the right thing in this instance and took action. That this action caused her great personal grief, and might even be seen as morally reprehensible in some quarters (including her own), was beside the point. She did what was necessary. What a (wo)man can do. Pirate! And that's what she's "not sorry" about.


Speaking of Norrington, there is a tendency among some fans to consider his descent into scruffiness in DMC as OOC. I love Norrington as much as anyone (and was quite upset that they chose to "off" him in AWE), but I must say (and have said before in various debates) that he was no White Knight in CotBP. From his first lines he is of the snark, seeing pirates and the law in stark black and white. He treats with utter scorn and instantly condemns the man who's just rescued his prospective betrothed from otherwise certain death, ignores Will's suggestion that Jack be questioned about the Black Pearl's whereabouts either out of jealousy or contempt of Will, would have sunk one of his own ships rather than be bested by a pirate, and ignores Jack's advice to return to the Dauntless to fight Barbossa's men, resulting in additional deaths. He does have many good qualities, and it's a great concession to give Jack that one day's head start. But to say that he's incapable of ruthless and even obsessive behavior in carrying out what he conceives to be his duty is to dismiss much of what made him interesting as a character in CotBP. Like all the others, Norrington is a mixture of good and bad. I personally didn't care for him much until a) we got the deleted scenes on the DVD, inclusion of which would have made him a much more sympathetic character (which may have been part of the reason they were cut) and b) I started reading Sparrington fanfic in February of '04, after which I could definitely see that there was more to him than had met my eye. But Sparrington in those early days, as someone noted in fabu's post, often showed Norrington in a harsher light, which was true to CotBP canon. The very best Sparrington fic took the time to justify his gradual acceptance of Jack as a good man.

One more point: much is made of that "hurricane off Tripoli", some holding to the opinion that Norrington would never try to sail through a storm of that magnitude to catch Jack Sparrow. But it occurs to me that weather prediction was far from the (more or less) exact science that it is today, and even today there are ships that get caught in terrible storms for one reason or another. What with determination, Sparrow possibly taunting him for months, and his willingness to take a risk, Norrington may have lost that game through sheer bad luck, and then (of course) blamed himself for the loss of his ship and the men on her. Thinking his life in ruins, I can see him falling apart, at least temporarily, and I can certainly see him trying to rebuild his life and his honor by siding with Beckett, who had been given authority by the crown. By the beginning of AWE he realizes he may have erred, and when Elizabeth tells him of her father's death he knows he did.

Comments

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I was going to try to wedge this in among the 270 or so replies to yours, but I was afraid it would get too long, and I was right. *G*

Now back to reading your last post!

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking the time to think all of this out!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

LOL! It's stuff I've said before, here and there, but I felt the need to reiterate. It does take some time to type it all out, though. *G*

[shrieking-ell.livejournal.com]

WORD! to all of this!

(And especially to the hurricane bit. I've posted about that before but to sum up - 1) Tripoli (either one) = Mediterranean = Generally no hurricanes. So why would he even expect one? 2) weather prediction = voodoo even up until, well now. 3) people, ships, the entire Pacific fleet,etc. still get caught in hurricanes and no one accuses them of bad judgement...

/ranty

(sorry, that hurricane is one of my biggest pet peeves. it could have happened to anyone.)

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

it could have happened to anyone.

Exactly. And yes, no hurricanes in the Med, but I'm sure they have some pretty hefty storms anyway. He gambled and lost. It's that simple.

[the-dala.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much exactly why all of that plot and characterization works for me through three films. Thank you.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! I can't help but think that ignoring Norrington's faults makes him a far less interesting character.

[torn-eledhwen.livejournal.com]

Yup, yes, aye and "word". :) I'd have missed this if you'd stuck it to fabu's post, so thanks!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I was amazed at the number of responses to fabu's post. People feel very strongly about this stuff. But it follows from writing fanfic, I suppose -- we spend hours and hours thinking about these characters in such detail that it's painful when someone comes to vastly different conclusions about them.

[rexluscus.livejournal.com]

I loved Elizabeth's moral ambiguity in DMC - her willingness to do whatever's necessary, even if that means murder. I'm not going to excuse what she does to Jack. It's hard to justify killing someone, no matter what the reasons. But we don't like these characters because they're good candidates for the supreme court, do we? Some people thought she was out of character in DMC, but she does some pretty ruthless stuff in the first film too, just not on quite that level. There is the potential there, which frankly keeps her from becoming that boring spunky faultless heroine you always see.

And I totally agree with you about the flirting-with-Jack thing. I had a similar thought about her the other day with respect to the first film. In her DVD commentary, Keira Knightly says that the deleted scene in which Elizabeth tells Norrington her acceptance of his proposal was not conditional was cut because it made Elizabeth "too horrible". This surprised me, because I'd had the opposite impression. Without the scene, Elizabeth is coldly using Norrington. With the scene, she is treating him like a human being. What the hell?

Then I realized: if she treats Norrington like a person with feelings, she's being unfaithful to Will. If her acceptance of the proposal isn't cold-bloodedly manipulative, she is hurting the chaste fairy-tale true love bond with Will upon which our sympathy for her supposedly rests. The heroine must love the hero and not even look at anyone else or else she's a whore, and to do so is a far greater sin than manipulating somebody into doing what you want by using their feelings for you against them.

Then the rest of it started falling into place. I'd wondered before why they'd taken pains to make Norrington less sympathetic. Now it was clear: if we hate Norrington, we'll excuse Elizabeth's bad treatment of him. If the audience actually likes the guy Elizabeth is rejecting, she'll look like a faithless whore for breaking it off with him, too. The more humane and non-abusive Elizabeth's relationship with Norrington becomes, the more whorish she supposedly looks. It's kind of an awful irony, isn't it?

I really wish they'd kept those scenes in. That "peas in a pod" scene is great too, and they clearly took it out because it draws attention to the manipulativeness of what Elizabeth's doing and makes Norrington look more like a victim. Again, we have to hate him in order to accept what she does. At any rate, I've decided to live in a world in which those scenes *are* part of the story. :)

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Now it was clear: if we hate Norrington, we'll excuse Elizabeth's bad treatment of him. If the audience actually likes the guy Elizabeth is rejecting, she'll look like a faithless whore for breaking it off with him, too. The more humane and non-abusive Elizabeth's relationship with Norrington becomes, the more whorish she supposedly looks. It's kind of an awful irony, isn't it?

It is! But I think they didn't give the audience enough credit, really. The relationships and the situations are so complicated, nothing is cut and dry, and that's why we love that movie, and the sequels, too. I think most of us who write fanfic view most of the deleted scenes as canon, yet retain our regard for all the characters.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

Most of your argument I don't have a heartfelt problem with. I thought Liz had a tendency to preen in CotBP, something that made her flirtation with Jack unsurprising (something that would have been a part of the baggage of Class Structure and Her Place In It that you mention in other ways here). But...

"There are some vocal critics of Elizabeth's behavior in DMC, seeing her [...] chaining [Jack] to the mast as betrayal and murder."

Actually, making sure someone is helpless to escape, when you know that a deadly animal is approaching, probably would be deemed murder in court - now or then. So, calling her a murderer is reasonable. And she did have a choice. You always have a choice. The trick is finding the one you can live with (to steal an idea from Capt. T. in AWE). Even she felt she chose badly, as evidenced by her miserable state in Tia's shack at the end of DMC and her need to be "forgiven" for it in AWE. Everyone makes mistakes - so long as you learn from it, it's not a waste, or even necessarily a bad thing. But, denying it doesn't make it go away.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I thought Liz had a tendency to preen in CotBP, something that made her flirtation with Jack unsurprising

Strangely, I never noticed her preening at all -- maybe for Will a little bit, in the beginning, but no more than any other young girl with a pretty new dress would -- and I remember sort of gaping in disbelief as my J/E writer fantasies were (more or less) made canon in DMC. I had seen little hint that Elizabeth more than tolerated Jack through most of CotBP, though it eventually dawned on me that her attitude had changed somewhat post-Battle of Isla de Muerta, and probably much more between that and the hanging. When she tells her father and Norrington "This is wrong!" it sounds like an old argument, as though she's been pleading for Jack's life for some time. In the year that passed between the hanging and DMC, absence obviously made the heart grow fonder, which is probably why Will's not quite as enthused about Jack as she is.

And she did have a choice. You always have a choice.

Certainly she could have risked trusting Jack to do the right thing. Whether he would have or not, even TnT don't know.

As for calling her a murderer, I still can't quite see it, any more than you'd call a soldier a murderer in time of war. It was a battle, and a matter of life and death for all of them.

Even she felt she chose badly, as evidenced by her miserable state in Tia's shack at the end of DMC and her need to be "forgiven" for it in AWE.

We know she was miserable that she'd felt she'd had to do it, miserable that Jack was gone. But we don't know that she regretted the choice she'd made, and she didn't ask forgiveness.

Everyone makes mistakes - so long as you learn from it, it's not a waste, or even necessarily a bad thing. But, denying it doesn't make it go away.

Again, was it a mistake? Would Jack have stayed (and I, for one, thought he would have -- I think that's why he went back), or would they all have died with him? If even the writers of the script don't agree on that point, I think we can each choose whatever version of the story suits us.

[bimo.livejournal.com]

(Original comment deleted and reposted to correct confusing mistake)

Speaking of Norrington, there is a tendency among some fans to consider his descent into scruffiness in DMC as OOC. I love Norrington as much as anyone (and was quite upset that they chose to "off" him in AWE), but I must say (and have said before in various debates) that he was no White Knight in CotBP

Hi there :-)

As we have never engaged in fannish discourse before, I only hope this doesn't come across as rude or aggressive, but can I just say that I find the above cited passage somewhat unfortunately phrased?

While my basic interpretation of CotBP Norrington doesn't seem to be all that different from yours as far as Norrington's flaws are concerned, I still believe the man's portrayal in DMC to be quite out of tune with the various character traits that were being established by CotBP.

From where I stand within fandom (borderline Navy girl, however with strong sympathies for Elizabeth, the old Governor and Will), it is not all that terribly far-fetched to read your paragraphs as implying the following generalisation:

Disapproval of DMC characterisation and Scruffington = Blind idolisation, glorification and white-washing

And this implication, accidental or not, strikes me just as plain wrong and a wee tad offensive.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Disapproval of DMC characterisation and Scruffington = Blind idolisation, glorification and white-washing

No, that's not what I said. You state that you see Norrington's faults as well as his strengths in CotBP, so we are very much on the same page. Obviously his character did not have to go in the DMC-Scruffington direction -- we know this from the many many great fanfics that say otherwise. But in the movie it did go in that direction as a result of a series of horrendous, off-camera events, and though it was surprising (and to some, distasteful), it was by no means an impossible scenario.

[lizzie-omalley.livejournal.com]

Plus, I did a little research on storms off Tripoli and because of the dynamics of the area and the interaction of land with sea air masses those hurricanes came up with even greater unpredictablility than most Atlantic storms.

I have been working on a Norri story along those lines.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I have been working on a Norri story along those lines.

I'd like to read that!

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I think you make a lot of excellent points here. And the biggest, most important one I think you're making is that Elizabeth (and Norrington) are both people of their time. Just as the game of flirtation is one of the ways that women can wield power, Norrington's ruthlessness toward "the lower element" is perfectly in character for a naval officer in the period. This is not the 21st century. Thank you for pointing that out!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

These movies are such a mixture of fantasy and history that making generalizations about what suits the era as far as male/female interaction, class structure etc. go seems a little silly. And yet, for the purposes of writing, we need to find that middle ground in order to be true to the tone of the movies. Not that there's any law that says one has to stay true to that tone, but that's what I'm looking for in PotC fanfiction: more of what made the movies so entertaining.

[sixpences.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the rec! And another WORD to the rest of this post- between CotBP and DMC Norrington suffers some unbelievably traumatic events, and I don't think sinking into an alternately self-hating and selfish malaise is at all OOC for someone who has not only lost all their honour and their social position (in a very hierarchical society), but has, as far as he sees it, needlessly caused the deaths of most of the crew of the Dauntless. People grieving for a loved one who has died in far less horrible circumstances still suffer from this kind of 'survivor's guilt'.

As for Elizabeth... well, I'm sure you know how I feel about her! *g*

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

People grieving for a loved one who has died in far less horrible circumstances still suffer from this kind of 'survivor's guilt'.

And how does that translate into turning the heart over to a man who's going to use it to control Death of the ocean to kill even more people, including the woman he loves? (Because as we see in AWE, he does.) If you can explain it, fine; I'm just puzzled how one is compatible with the other.

thoughts on Elizabeth

[oasis-herself.livejournal.com]

I'm coming into this thread late, but had an observation I wanted to share.
First of all, straight up, I don't like Elizabeth...she has always struck me as one of those shallow type females who flits from male to male and thinks nothing of using them to gain her own ends.
Also...I feel that if you want to stay with the idea that her flirtatious behaviour is in keeping with 'that time era' then you have to recognize that her sudden 'warrior' abilities, don't fit that era. (nor would her upper-class level of physical fitness)
For me, they were just too much of a suspension of belief (my biggest complaint with her in the sequels)
(I kept envisioning todays equivalent...ya know, some sociopathic navy guys girlfriend...arming herself and charging off to Iraq to save him.)
And yes, I realize that rather removes much of the fantasy romance element from the watchers equation...sorry there.

However, despite that opinion of mine (and on to my actual point)
In her defense...
when she chained Jack to the Pearl, I believe that was her one pure female moment and clearly demonstrated who she loved. (Will)
I, for one would kill to protect my own...and though I doubt that TS & TE have the depth to have engineered that plot concept (but through mistake) I think in that moment Elizabeth was the "She Bear" that probably resides deep within all women.
Murderess? Really...I don't believe so...I kinda think many of us could kill if our loved ones were actually on the line.

Anyways, just my thoughts on it.

Re: thoughts on Elizabeth

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

"She Bear", yes!

But oasis, your condemnation of her... once again... sexual behavior goes right back to the original subject which is about how women tend to condemn women in the plural for their sexuality, vis, "one of those shallow type females".

You could say; "One of those shallow people" which would subtly change the gender focus, eh?

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

I generally have no problem with Elizabeth's actions in DMC for all those reasons you listed above, but you put it far more nicely than I ever could.

As for Norrington, again I agree with you in essence. A lot can be made of this hurricane of Tripoli, etc, but I don't see it as OOC. In fact, sometimes I feel that I am one of the few people who really loved the development of DMC Norrington. It made him even more endlessly fascinating than he was in CotBP. It gave him a completely new dimension, and I am all for character development. It isn't that exciting so see someone never change or question themselves. In that regard, you could study Norrington forever throughout all the three films, and I will always stand by that he is one of the few in the trilogy that changes the most.

As shrieking_ell said, the hurricane could have happened to anyone, and it is unrealistic to consider Norrington above normal human failings. (After all, Curse shows us that he can be blinded when it comes to doing what is right, what is lawful, and especially blind where Elizabeth is concerned).

[the-dala.livejournal.com]

Curse shows us that he can be blinded when it comes to doing what is right, what is lawful, and especially blind where Elizabeth is concerned

This is an excellent point. There's the scene where he won't question Jack because he doesn't believe a pirate could give him any useful information (which comes back to bite him in the ass when the Dauntless is boarded by Barbossa's men), and then there's his agreeing to go after Will. That's a good and noble thing to do, in one sense, but it's also rather foolhardy and irresponsible, considering he's risking his ship and his men in search of one missing dude. He clearly didn't seriously consider it until Elizabeth asked him. I think after CoBP, when he makes his peace with Elizabeth and Will, he transfers this blind spot to Jack (read into that what you will...:) And of course, that peace doesn't end up sitting too well once he's hit bottom.

[captaintish]

Very interesting comments about Norrington. I've always thought he was basically a good guy, just trying to do his job, which just happens to be on the opposite side of our "heroes". I personally liked Scruffy!Norrington in DMC. I thought he was a lot of fun, and actually much more attractive in his scruffiness. Of course he made a huge mistake in choosing the wrong side, but in the end he redeemed himself and I was quite proud of him. He had a noble death, I felt.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Norrington is a great character, but wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting without his very human faults. I was thrilled they even brought him back for the sequels -- they could easily have cut him out entirely!

[compassrose7577.livejournal.com]

What a great post! It would seem you've given this a bit of thought, lass!:)

I would struggle tolerating some of the names being thrown about to descirbe Lizzie's behavior. Odd that she is praised on the one hand for being a freedom-seeking pirate, and called names on the other hand for doing what everyone (in the fandom at least, it would seem) sits on the edges of their seats waiting for her to do.

The fandom seems to operate in a sort of yes/no, black/white, moral/immoral split personality of thinking in today's standards, but putting them in yesterday's contexts.

Caught up in this yesterday/today mode, are we leading ourselves into a double standard? Do we measure with today's yardstick and allow Lizzie to be the equal of Jack (which in many ways she is Jack in drag). Or, do we insist she live by the standards of her day and require that she put the corset back on and be the good little governor's daughter? She can't be the pirate (that she is so strongly admired for), an equal among men, and pure as the driven snow.

What seems to get overlooked is the complex characters we were handed by TnT...there are no perfect heroes, there are no perfect villans. All have goals, desires, needs and morals, often at cross-purposes to each other. Isn't that what attracted most of us to POTC to begin with? And what has been most fascinating has been to watch the evolution of each character throughout the 3 movies. Perhaps the only one frozen in time was Beckett; he was our only true villan....but there is probably some, some where, that are de-villifying him as I speak.

It would seem the fandom might be still suffering from the urge to categorize every character as good or bad, and, if you stay true to the canon, can't be done. We also seem to be suffering from a touch of the modern day affliction of intolerance to opposing points of view. That I find the most disquieting.

Hurricane? Wasn't that the ultimate metaphore for the drastic extent Norrington was willing to go to catch Jack? Have to agree with the mama here. No doubt, Jack had taunted Norrington into doing something he wouldn't normally have done. But, as in many military maneuvers, if the risk works, you're a hero, and if it doesn't, you're a looser! I suppose the saying: The man who never made a mistake never did much, might apply here. Maybe Norrington was suffering from the Demon Ambition, but that doesn't make him a monster.

Well, I've already said more than I've promised myself I would, but somethings have just gotta come out.

Summation: I agree, mama!

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I was doing the beach/pool/too-much-wine/dinner and movie thing yesterday, so am only now getting on and finding this enormous number of comments. Argh!!!

Have to agree that, even with one of the great themes of the movie being that nothing is black and white, there are many fans who can't seem to help judging each character as though there are no shades of gray, and many reasons and emotions behind our actions.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

But to say that he's incapable of ruthless and even obsessive behavior in carrying out what he conceives to be his duty is to dismiss much of what made him interesting as a character in CotBP.

I was really sad after AWE, thinking that Norrington fell so far and should have known better than to sign on with Beckett. And there are those who think that he didn't really know everything that Beckett was up to when he signed on with him. But reading your post and thinking about the three movies, it all comes together, doesn't it? It's sad because I had bought into the fanon of him as a kind of Gary-Stu perfect officer, but he had this edge from the very beginning. I never thought the sequels were OOC, but I thought that he had fallen awfully far; reading this I see that he was on that path from the first movie. Excellent post you have here.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I never thought the sequels were OOC, but I thought that he had fallen awfully far; reading this I see that he was on that path from the first movie.

I think it was his faults that made him human in the first movie, and his genuine regard for Elizabeth was very endearing. Vast volumes of post-CotBP fanfiction attests to the fact that there were many happier ways for his character to develop. But I think, to justify his inclusion as a major character in the sequels, TPTB felt they had to change him in some rather drastic way or risk repeating themselves. I wish they hadn't felt they needed to kill him off, but that's why we have fanfiction I suppose. It pleases me greatly to see A/U's in which he does escape the Dutchman, or fics in which Will, as CotFD, brings him back.

[rach74.livejournal.com]

Love this post :)

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Glad you enjoyed!

[hereswith.livejournal.com]

Great points, my dear! You know my views on Elizabeth, and I loved Norrington from the first, but yes, you're right, those qualities are already there in CotBP. And your thoughts on the hurricane make sense :-)

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Norrington wouldn't be half as interesting without his faults. Such a great character.

Glad you enjoyed the post.

[sinister-beauty.livejournal.com]

Word UP.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

:))

Great icon, btw!

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

From his first lines he is of the snark, seeing pirates and the law in stark black and white. He treats with utter scorn and instantly condemns the man who's just rescued his prospective betrothed from otherwise certain death,

Word. He's not evil, but he's not, y'know, an innocent angel, either. And I love it. :) (And he's hot when he's scruffy. /brings the shallow)

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

We are as one on scruffy James -- really wonderful. So many shades of gray there. He's utterly human, which is why we love him. Besides the hotness, I mean. :))

[moonspinner.livejournal.com]

If your meta was a person, I'd describe it as well-spoken and intelligent. :) It's really great for me reading the sudden wave in fandom about female characterization and Elizabeth Swann's in particular. I have to admit that in my initial viewing of DMC, I did not like Elizabeth's character… up until the very end when she killed Jack Sparrow and was redeemed in my eyes. The funny thing is that I had no problems with the flirtations for manipulation or curiosity. My grouse was the ridiculous plot device of the compass and the implication that Elizabeth's feelings for Jack were more than affectionate disdain. This is probably very subjective but I never saw the hints of affection between the two characters in CotBP and DMC with all the not so subtle hints in every scene and from every character (even Beckett somehow sensed Elizabeth's conflicted heart) about Elizabeth's unresolved feelings was an 'o rly' moment for me.

However, as I said, the murder of Jack Sparrow moment was probably my best Elizabeth moment of the movie and the one that I felt was the most consistent, most natural progression of her character from CotBP. The Kiss of Death was just a darker version of the Beach scene in the first movie. Only this time with: chains to the mast as opposed to a strip of land in the ocean; an actual kiss instead of a lot of rum and the promise of one; a Kraken instead of a ship of Naval soldiers who'd doubtless take Jack to Port Royale for a hanging.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

I never saw the hints of affection between the two characters in CotBP

I didn't either, and DMC was an 'o rly' moment for me, too. However, on my umpteenth view of CotBP, I did note that after the fight at the Isla de Muerta, Elizabeth seems distressed that the Pearl has absconded without Jack, leaving him to the RN's mercies. Then there is a block of time unaccounted for -- is it a day or two, or a couple of weeks, or a month before the day of the hanging? Lots of potential (and already written) fanfic covering that, fanfic that can build on that spark of sympathy as well as Will's feelings on the matter. And then, at the hanging, Elizabeth says "This is wrong!", and it seems to be an old argument that she's just not winning. And between the movies I can just see absence making the heart grow fonder as she has long months to think about her adventure, and the same could be true for Jack. So in the end, I saw that their regard for each other in DMC did make sense.

I see the Kiss of Death was an act of desperation for her, not something she wanted to do, something she felt she had to do so that most of them could escape. But yes, it's consistent with the characterization in CotBP. I think that's why Jack didn't want to want her. He knew what she was capable of.

[bombazzinedoll.livejournal.com]

I'm a little late with this, but THANK YOU. Total, total WERD to everything you said up there!

It's really interesting to see everyone's thoughts on this as well, and how these characters (particularly Jas. and E) pan out in comparison to people's personal social standards.