dwgm: (Jack - WTF?)
[personal profile] dwgm
Some of my earliest memories, beginning when I was three years old or so, involve falling in love with stories and characters from television, movies, and books. My head has always been filled with stories about the characters I love, from Yogi Bear & Boo Boo, Lassie, Bonanza, My Favorite Martian, King Arthur (inspired by Richard Burton in Camelot), The Beatles (on seeing A Hard Day’s Night), High Chaparral, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Lord of the Rings (the book), Star Trek (the original series), Star Wars, McCaffrey’s Dragonriders of Pern series, Miami Vice, Phantom of the Opera (Michael Crawford RPF, omg!), etc., to my obsession of the last four years, Pirates of the Caribbean.

Growing up, none of my friends seemed to share my fannish tendencies, and it wasn’t until I began looking for further Pirates adventures on the internet in late 2003 that I discovered that I was Not Alone. Reading others’ stories or sharing my own, it’s been an amazing experience, more fun, more satisfying than I ever imagined possible. I’ve met, both online and off, so many wonderful people, and each of them has at least that one thing in common with me: Fannish Love.

Fannish Love is a very real thing, as long as it lasts, whether it’s weeks, months, or years. Fannish Love is particularly intense for those of us who write. We spend many hours, countless hours, with these characters, composing stories in our heads long before they are pounded into a keyboard and appear on a screen. These stories, these characters, are important to us in the same way story and myth have always been important to people. They speak to us of our human condition, in words that reach our minds and hearts.

Additionally, there is no one correct interpretation of a story or character. There are many variations that can fall within the parameters of canon. Sometimes a majority of fans will agree on various points, but that doesn’t mean that the minority view is incorrect, and sometimes views are as diverse as fandom itself. The one thing all views have in common is that they are more or less dear to the hearts of their proponents, and because of this, friendly discussion of them is acceptable, but acrimonious debate or intentional ridicule is not.

Fannish harmony is a truly joyful thing, because we do care so much, but conversely, fannish discord hurts, and takes the fun out of participation in fandom. Just as in any human interaction, the feelings of others must be taken into consideration, and civility should be the order of the day. Unfortunately, whether it’s meta, comments, or even author’s notes, the “anonymity” of the internet encourages just the opposite. One may feel fewer constraints regarding content, tone, and language, resulting in messages that may be misinterpreted, or interpreted all too accurately. When one creates negative energy, damage is done. And as these instances multiply over the course of time, harmony is destroyed.

Whatever you write – stories, author’s notes, meta, comments, whatever – let it be written out of love. Love of the characters, the stories, and your fellow fans. We’re all in this together, as diverse as we are. Let’s be good to each other, civil in debate, gentle in criticism, respectful of each others’ likes and dislikes.

And if all else fails, remember what Thumper’s dad said, savvy?


~.~
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Date: 2008-05-07 02:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] erinya.livejournal.com
I fail. :-(

Date: 2008-05-07 02:40 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
No you don't, no more than anyone, including me.

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Date: 2008-05-07 02:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mary684.livejournal.com
Fannish Love. I definitely resemble that remark! I see we have many fandoms in common through the years.

I'm not sure exactly what prompted this, but I agree totally with what you are saying. Apparently, it needed to be said, and you said it beautifully. I shall endeavor to do my part to keep the harmony and creative juices flowing!

Date: 2008-05-07 02:47 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
I just can't help noticing that negative vibes beget more negative vibes. Harmony has to be nurtured. This may sound pollyanna-ish, but frankly that's been my experience, my whole life. I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

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Date: 2008-05-07 02:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bombazzinedoll.livejournal.com
THIS.

I've had a couple of fannish rough spots myself, which I don't have any . . . remotely rational explanations for, but I think I've finally settled back into my happy place. It would be nice if everyone else did, too.
Edited Date: 2008-05-07 02:52 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-05-07 03:00 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
It's really difficult to ignore criticism of the ideas one has about the stories and characters one loves. There have been times in the past when I've forgotten the whole of what I just wrote up there. But there's no profit in tearing the fandom apart, it hurts us all, it has hurt so many over the last year alone. We need to concentrate on good stories, good writing, and civil discussion. It can be done!

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Date: 2008-05-07 03:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] compassrose7577.livejournal.com
I couldn't agree more!! The internet is a vast place and this fandom...any fandom...is large enough to allow for co-existence. I agree that our greatest friend and our greatest enemy is the internet. It's too freeing of responsibility for your actions.

Disagreement doesn't have to equal disregard. Just because you don't comply with the logic of a character, plot line, pairing, whatever the case may be, doesn't necessarily mean that you are wishing they be stricken from existence...it just means you don't agree. No personal attacks, no implications of right or wrong,not calling your dog ugly or your child stupid, just plain, simple disagree.

I would like to think that our common love--what brought any of us here in the first place--could overcome the differences. Perhaps some of the recent venting as served to help decompress tensions, but I'm inclinded to think not.

This is my first fandom experience. I showed up on the doorstep with a very wide-eyed dreams of having a fun place to talk, explain, discuss, explore and create. Silly child!

Battered and chastened, I'm still able to find what I came for, but with great discretion. Granted, a couple times a year my frustrations boil over, but it's been something of a playground experience. I've learned who plays nice, and who doesn't. I know who the bullies are and I know who are the popular ones that you don't dare mess with, because all their friends will gang up on you. (What was that book about "Everything I Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten?")

The ironic thing is, everyone keeps saying the same thing: Why can't everyone be nice? But in reality, they're wondering why the other guy can't be nice, because they don't think they've done anything wrong. Someone needs to hand out some mirrors. (And I'll openly include myself in that suggestion.)

We can only live in hope that the vexations will fade and the common interest will take over. Like I said, it's a hope.


Date: 2008-05-07 03:22 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
in reality, they're wondering why the other guy can't be nice, because they don't think they've done anything wrong. Someone needs to hand out some mirrors. (And I'll openly include myself in that suggestion.)

Exactly. I'm certainly included, too. It's not one group, it's every group. Every individual needs to act with consideration.

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Date: 2008-05-07 03:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yoiebear.livejournal.com
The issues that prompted this post have been bubbling for two years now and are the EXACT reason I stick strictly to fanfic and don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks or any other part of the fandom.

People can only take so much negative before they retaliate in similar veins.

People need to learn to accept that their thoughts or feelings about something do not make it canon and to accept that everyone has their own interpretations as to the characters we all dearly love.

As you said, we are ALL in this.

Date: 2008-05-07 03:27 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
we are ALL in this.

Amen.

Date: 2008-05-07 03:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com
You know what? Anyone I disagree with wins. I give up. I've been converted. Everything is a sexist plot to keep women down. All fanfic that seeks to do anything to Elizabeth that would be bad for her fails, and the writers are misogynists.

I'm so sick of this. It's not fun anymore. I have two stories I've wanted to finish for months and it'll never happen. Because I no longer care. Because it doesn't matter in the long run of things, does it? Who the hell wants to read what I have to write, anyway? It doesn't feature Elizabeth the Magnificent, and it never will. All I've done is make enemies in this fandom, and I'm so, SO tired of reading that anything I might like is wrong and bad and evil and I don't have much sense for liking it.

(This isn't aimed at you. You once said you stuck around me because I care about the characters. Well, obviously I don't care about some of them enough. Fuck it.)

Date: 2008-05-07 03:32 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
I think you are missing my point. This was aimed at me as much as anyone. But we need to focus on the stories, and cut each other some slack. There's no other way we can coexist happily. And it's not easy and it's not a pie-in-the-sky thing -- it can be done. But we have to work at it, just as one works at coexiting with one's fellows in RL, every day. It's worth doing in RL, and it's worth doing in fandom.

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Date: 2008-05-07 04:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] teenybuffalo.livejournal.com
I give up. What did Thumper's dad say?

Date: 2008-05-07 04:57 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
LOL!

If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all.

Which, of course is a double negative. 0.o

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Date: 2008-05-07 08:13 am (UTC)
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (me - little prince)
From: [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com
Well spoken. The Law of Bambi was a mantra in my house growing up. Sometimes I failed to heed it; sometimes I still fail to heed it. But I think the important thing is regrouping and trying again, when that's possible.

Date: 2008-05-07 01:33 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
Sometimes I failed to heed it; sometimes I still fail to heed it.

We all do, me included. But I must say, if you enter into a discussion, your comments are as civil as possible, though you're not afraid to express an opinion. I really really admire that.

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Date: 2008-05-07 08:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] honorat.livejournal.com
*Hugs* to everyone. [livejournal.com profile] geekmama you nail what I like about fandom. There are some ideas I like better than others, but that is what the BACK button is for on my browser. If it doesn't float my boat, I don't have to sail on it. I don't have the time. And a great many people write things that I don't prefer, but they'll never know about it from me. And mostly I stay in the realm of writing fanfic where I try to be as sympathetic to every one of my characters as possible, even those whom I've conscripted to be the "heavies." So I think I've managed to not create any real enemies--at least they don't tell me about it! There is something to be said for the ostrich's strategy. This is my play. I avoid any part of it which doesn't make me feel like I've been playing. Thanks for being one of the writers who's fun to play with.

Date: 2008-05-07 01:37 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
This is my play. I avoid any part of it which doesn't make me feel like I've been playing.

Mostly I do too, but it's so very not fun to watch one's playmates duking it out, damage being done with words instead of fists. That kind of damage lasts far longer.

*hugs peace-loving, brilliant friend*

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Date: 2008-05-07 10:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] p0wdermonkey.livejournal.com
Oh boy...
After reading only the posts I was going to say that fannish love is good but we mustn't be so in fear of spoiling it that we become afraid to state our own views, write our own stories, or disagree (politely) with other people.

Now I've read the comments, and I'm thinking...
Maybe what we need is to be both gentler (no name-calling) but also tougher about coping with criticism and disagreement. If what you're saying is interesting, it's likely not everyone will embrace it. Why should they?

Personally, I'm happy to read Elizabeth the Magnificent AND Elizabeth the Failure fics because I feel she has the potential to go either way in a bloody difficult situation. But if you write either one, you're going to piss off people with a strong loyalty to the other. It's only fair to warn those people off a fic that may upset them. It's also fair to brush off objections to what you write if the thing they want you to change is fundamental to your story and not negotiable.

So far the gods of comments have been kind to me and no-one has said "How can you pair Jack with Barbossa? Yuck! Jack would never! Barbossa smells! You're wrongwrongWRONG!" but I know people are thinking it. And they're entitled to think it because canon supports that too.

Many, many stories. ALL of them true.


Date: 2008-05-07 01:48 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
It is all too easy for discussion to degenerate into name calling, far more difficult to carry on civil debate. All I'm asking is that people think of the possibly far-reaching consequences of what they post.

Warnings on fic are essential, and to be fair the story that sparked this latest trainwreck did warn us, if rather cryptically: 'fanon drove me to it'. It was, however, marked J/E, erroneously.

"How can you pair Jack with Barbossa? Yuck!

But there's nothing yucky about them, not the way you write them. You skillfully, cleverly build your case that it's possible, you convince us with your writing. And that was one of the objections to that "J/E" story, there was nothing showing why the ending occurred. You write out of love, and we can't help but be drawn into your vision.

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Date: 2008-05-07 10:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fried-flamingo.livejournal.com
I think my personal love of fandom comes from the mutual celebration and enjoyment of a particular movie/tv show/actor. But it also comes from the way in which those things can provoke discussion about the world in which we live. I'm all for discussion, even when vastly opposing points of view are brought into play, in fact especially when that happens.

The problem arises when it gets personal and the 'My opinion is valid. How dare you say I'm wrong?' card is played. As happens on many, many occasions. Sure, your entitled to your opinion, just don't expect me to keep schtum when I disagree with it. But, I'll hold my hands up and say I'm a 'final word' sort of girl - I just cannot resist! I need to know when to step away and realise when it's becoming counter-productive.

But at the end of the day, discussion takes us forward. Shit slinging does not. That's where things get unpleasant.

FWIW, I haven't lost the love. On the contrary, it's still very strong and I'm sticking around for a while yet :D

Date: 2008-05-07 01:51 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
discussion takes us forward. Shit slinging does not. That's where things get unpleasant.

Exactly. If discussion occurs, it has to be civil, there has to be opportunity for give and take, otherwise it becomes a negative thing, and only hurts all of us.

I am so very happy you're sticking around because I just love it when I see a post with your name on it!

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Date: 2008-05-07 10:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ceria-taliesin.livejournal.com
I have to say, this is a very pretty post and I love it and it reminds me why I adore my flist and the people I've met on the net. It's sad that another friend of mine in another fandom posted something similar to this last night, but... hope is a beautiful thing and it's nice to see a bright spot on my flist.

And I compliment you on your desire to even write it.

Date: 2008-05-07 01:52 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
hope is a beautiful thing

There is too much talent and intelligence among these people to give up, but we need to remember (and remember and remember) what brought us here in the first place.

Date: 2008-05-07 10:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] salr323.livejournal.com
What a lovely post.

Whatever you write – stories, author’s notes, meta, comments, whatever – let it be written out of love. Love of the characters, the stories, and your fellow fans. We’re all in this together, as diverse as we are.

I think that's it exactly. In fandom there is no point in writing a story unless you love what you write, no point in reading a story unless you love what you read. Yes, it's wonderful to get lots of feedback but it shouldn't be the reason you write, nor should it be the measure of your success. After all, when has popularity ever been an indication of quality?

I do feel it's provocative to write a fic with the deliberate intent of attacking what other fans love, and it only leads to more bitterness. So the message clearly is, write out of love for the characters and the story and allow others to do the same.

That way we can all have fun. :)


Edited Date: 2008-05-07 10:55 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-05-07 02:00 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
Yes, it's wonderful to get lots of feedback but it shouldn't be the reason you write, nor should it be the measure of your success.

My sentiments exactly.

I do feel it's provocative to write a fic with the deliberate intent of attacking what other fans love, and it only leads to more bitterness.

Exactly again, and this post was aimed at the author of that recent fic just as much as anyone. There was a warning on it, of sorts, but it was marked J/E and it most certainly was not!

And yes, fun is why we're here. Civility and consideration of others should be the rule.

Date: 2008-05-07 11:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenthegypsy.livejournal.com
What beautifully penned sentiments, my dear. Blessed be the peacemakers...

Date: 2008-05-07 02:00 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
Thank you. It came from the heart, I can tell you.

*hugs you*

Date: 2008-05-07 11:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hereswith.livejournal.com
I love you, you know that, right? ♥ ♥ ♥

Date: 2008-05-07 02:01 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
I love you, too.

*hugs you*

Date: 2008-05-07 01:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] this-weirdness.livejournal.com
So I can tell my family that it's not an obsession, it's fannish love! Thanks for that! ;)

Seriously though, I agree with your entire post. I've had fannish love for many fandoms over the years, but it was only with PotC that I discovered fandom on the internet. Through the net I've met many lovely people whose stories I have enjoyed reading, and with whom I have had many an interesting discussion about the films and writing. These people have encouraged me greatly in their comments on my stories. I have been fortunate that my fandom experience has been mostly pleasant. From the few unpleasant things I have witnessed and experienced I have learned that I want to be treated with respect on the net, and that I should treat others with respect too. I think you summed my feelings up perfectly with this: Whatever you write – stories, author’s notes, meta, comments, whatever – let it be written out of love. Love of the characters, the stories, and your fellow fans. We’re all in this together, as diverse as we are. Let’s be good to each other, civil in debate, gentle in criticism, respectful of each others’ likes and dislikes.

There's something very wrong when we treat fictional characters better than we treat real people.

I do agree with the idea that if we have nothing nice to say we shouldn't say anything at all. People generally respond to analytical comments more positively if something positive is included in them. What I do is this: I leave an encouraging comment on an author's work, and if there is something I REALLY feel I have to say that might be considered negative, I contact the author via pm and ask them if they'd like some private concrit. That might not be the most transparent way of giving feedback, at least not for other readers, but it can spare the author's feelings which I think is important. I'm also wary of leaving criticism in public because I've heard the rumours about people 'overreacting' to it (although I've never actually witnessed it myself). I really don't want to get embroiled in drama... I've seen enough of that on other sites. I come to LJ to relax and have fun with my fellow fans.

Date: 2008-05-07 02:08 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
So I can tell my family that it's not an obsession, it's fannish love! Thanks for that!

You're welcome. And yes, it's a weird phenomenon but I myself have found that it's part of what gets me through the day with my sanity intact. The only time I wasn't making up stories in my head was from July 01 to July 03, after a personal tragedy, and I wondered if I'd ever feel quite sane again. PotC brought me out of that blackness quite abruptly, and I'll always be thankful for it.

I like your ideas about enouraging comments, and emailing privately about concrit. I'm all for civil discussion, too, but it has to be civil to be a positive thing.

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Date: 2008-05-07 01:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] virgo-79.livejournal.com
Thank you for this, 'mama. I don't know what conflict prompted it, but it's good advice. I've always thought this fandom was particularly civil when it came to differing opinions when compared to some others, and even though it looks as if there are some people with some hurt feelings right now, I honestly still feel that way. I know that probably doesn't help the ones who are feeling kind of stung right now, and I don't mean to belittle the problems that are out there, but I've always felt this is a very welcoming fandom. Maybe that's just my personal experience, but it's something I'm very grateful for.

There are, as you say, so many different and perfectly valid interpretations of characters, and that variety is what makes fandom fun. If something isn't my personal cup of tea, I just don't read it. But just because I choose to change the channel doesn't mean I want something to go away. A fandom needs writers, and if we were all writing the same kinds of stories, this place would get pretty bloody dull.

And I don't think people should be afraid to debate, or even to argue -- but we need to remember not to make it -- or take it -- personally, and that gets tough when you're passionate about something. I know I've gotten pretty hot at times when it comes to discussion of the films and things that I didn't like (or... things that I despised) about them. But I don't think less of my fellow fans who loved some aspect of the movies that I disliked, and I hope I've never hurt anybody's feelings in my expression of my opinions. (Except for the person or persons who made the call to cut the slave backstory from the films, and if that person is reading this: I meant every word and I hope I made you cry like a little sissy girl, you quack.)

I have, however, been the unpopular voice in a fandom before...and it can suck. And to the people who find themselves feeling like that's where they're at...don't let it stop you. What you have to say is as significant as anyone else's opinion. Write what you want to write, and don't ever be intimidated. Don't ever let anyone chase you away from something you love. Now I agree with Geekmama -- do it out of love. Do it because it's what you believe, or are fascinated by, or because it's a story that won't leave you be until you get it down. There's expressing our own opinions, and then there's attacking someone else for theirs. 'Mama's right: let's keep it about the love.

That said, I love this fandom for its diversity, its talent, its encouragement, and its respectfulness. We all have our bad days and take things a little too far, and that's okay, it happens -- we just need to remember to take that deep breath and bounce back from it, and come back to be constructive, and receptive, and good to each other.

But I would hate to see anybody, on either side of an argument, chased out of this fandom, because it's absolutely an awesome, awesome group of people, and everyone in it has something valuable to contribute.

Date: 2008-05-07 02:12 pm (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
We all have our bad days and take things a little too far, and that's okay, it happens -- we just need to remember to take that deep breath and bounce back from it, and come back to be constructive, and receptive, and good to each other.

Amen. Me included! We need to remind ourselves over and over that it's all about love. It has to be, to be a positive thing.

*hugs you very much*

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Date: 2008-05-07 03:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] doolabug.livejournal.com
A lovely post, my dear, and appropriate on so many levels! IMHO, in the end, you just have to keep reminding yourself that your fandom has undead pirate monkeys and is based on a theme park ride. We love it and have become invested in it, but it's not worth hurting feelings, alienating fellow fans, and harshing other peoples' squee. Also, you know I'm only here for the pr0n!;-)

Date: 2008-05-08 05:31 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
it's not worth hurting feelings, alienating fellow fans, and harshing other peoples' squee.

Amen. A little more tolerance, a little more consideration. We're all here for the Pirate!love. And the prOn. *g*

Date: 2008-05-07 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] komandant-krech.livejournal.com
Good points. You're the peacemaker of this fandom :)

Though, I have to somewhat disagree about what Thumper's Dad says -- if all fb and in general, any sort of communication you receive from your fellow human beings is smiles, praises and back-patting, how can you ever develop? If you're told only nice things all the time, you easily start believing "OMG I'm so perfect -- everybody loves me!" (and then when you crash, you crash _hard_!)

As someone already pointed out, maybe we just need to develop a thicker skin towards some random negativity, just learn to brush it off. What did Jack say to Elizabeth in CotBP: "Sticks and stones, love"? Now, with this I don't, of course, wish to encourage negativity, and especially if it's all you ever get, and continues and continues ad nauseam -- for most people, fandom is, after all, an escape from reality which is already full of negativity as it is.

*shrug* just my opinion, which is, naturally, colored according to my own personality. I'm a weird masochist in a way that I don't mind being hated. I have some very controversial political and other views, and I've definitely got my fair share of shit because of that, but every time that has happened I've squealed with joy because it has only meant I've been able to make people _think_, to question their _own_ views ;)

What little I write/have written myself, has been not only for love/interest in the characters, but for love of writing itself and exploring different ideas. I don't necessarily need to even like my characters; it's enough that they're interesting and have potential to be able to act in my "play" ;) (Though then again, I'm not exactly the Little Miss Sunshine, anyway :p)

Also, if you feel the need to forcefeed your personal political/whatever views to people, it's nicer to start your comments with "I _think_ that...", "In _my_ opinion...", "This is just how I interpreted this _myself_...", instead of hammering down your theories like they were some God-given facts. I think that's what pisses most people off, not so much the comments themselves.

(And now I must also point out that not all in this reply was related to this latest fandom snafu. I've been in the 'net for several years and shit happens everywhere ;))
Edited Date: 2008-05-07 05:19 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-05-08 05:05 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
I have to somewhat disagree about what Thumper's Dad says -- if all fb and in general, any sort of communication you receive from your fellow human beings is smiles, praises and back-patting, how can you ever develop? If you're told only nice things all the time, you easily start believing "OMG I'm so perfect -- everybody loves me!" (and then when you crash, you crash _hard_!)

Well as far as concrit goes, we are not professional writers here, for the most part, and there are ways to give useful feedback without being insulting. It's good to not be too thin-skinned, but one needs to be careful, especially with younger writers, or even older ones who don't have the experience or confidence to take blunt criticism. I liked [livejournal.com profile] this_weirdness's idea, of saying something encoouraging in public comments, and emailing the author to offer concrit if they want some input.

And Thumper's dad's saying, I still maintain it's a good thing to keep in mind, in any human interaction. Most useful intercourse is acccomplished through civility, and if you can't be civil -- if you're just too upset or angry, and are tempted to get nasty and personal -- it's best to keep quiet and cool down until you can. Words can do a lot of damage, and once they're out there you can't take them back.

I don't necessarily need to even like my characters; it's enough that they're interesting and have potential to be able to act in my "play"

It's always fun to write the villains. I really like that too! And sometimes it's the negative qualities of the characters we like that are most fascinaating -- and certainly make a story more interesting.

hammering down your theories like they were some God-given facts.

Exactly. The diverrsity of views and differing opionions are something to be valued, I think. If we all thought the same, wrote the same things, it would be a litte dull.

not all in this reply was related to this latest fandom snafu. I've been in the 'net for several years and shit happens everywhere

So I understand. The PotC fandom was virtually wank-free, though, until DMC came out, so all this strife is very depressing. I just think we need to cut each other some slack, and focus on writing good stories, whatever pairing or character we love.

Thank you for commenting -- I do enjoy getting your views on things!

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From: [identity profile] komandant-krech.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-05-08 02:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2008-05-07 04:20 pm (UTC)
ext_18053: (jackhandcoin)
From: [identity profile] djarum99.livejournal.com
As so many commenters have mentioned, this is a lovely post. Reading through the responses has been quite fascinating, and confirms that there is definitely a lot of love out there. It outweighs the discouragement I feel when I read the comments from folks who are distorting the issue and misconstruing the point. The remarkable thing about this whole fandango is that there weren't any bullies - no rocks thrown, no sniping attacks - except, well...here. Which is stunning, given the eloquence of [livejournal.com profile] geekmama's message.

I've followed the comments on the story in question. I believe my own comment was civil, and focused on the very topic of [livejournal.com profile] geekmama's post - writing out of love rather than resentment. The author herself has maintained a civil tone in her responses, and I'll definitely give her kudos for that. I've seen very few comments on her piece that weren't favorable, and perhaps two that crossed any kind of line. Given that she herself acknowledges that her piece was intended as a stab at what she believes to be intractable fanon and universal "dogma" (funny, that doesn't seem to be the case) - I'm truly impressed with the fandom. All things considered, and with a few notable exceptions, people were very civil in commenting and discussing a provocative topic. I care a lot more about that than whether or not another writer agrees with my perceptions, although bashing those perceptions is hardly civil.

And yes, it still hurts. It hurts to see the kind of poisonous resentment this author expressed turning up repeatedly, and remaining unchallenged - given tacit support. Sometimes, things need to be challenged.

I love this fandom. I will continue writing because I love it, I love these characters, and I love the wonderful people who share that with me. Thank you for this.
Edited Date: 2008-05-07 04:21 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-05-08 05:16 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
there is definitely a lot of love out there.

I know there is, too, but all of us need to be reminded of that, sometimes.

It hurts to see the kind of poisonous resentment this author expressed turning up repeatedly, and remaining unchallenged - given tacit support.

Yes. I'm not arguing that she had every right to post the story, or that the premise could have been interesting if developed properly. But considering the author's notes, and the oddly abrupt ending it just felt like a poke with a sharp stick.

I love this fandom too, and the people in it, diverse as they are. We need to be more tolerant, and more thoughtful about the words we use. No one's squee deserves to be harshed.

And btw -- Happy Birthday!!! Yours is the same day as mine! How cool is that?!

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Date: 2008-05-07 06:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-pyratequeen.livejournal.com
I also have no idea what trainwreck this post was about, but it is beautifully written-- and scarily valid for every fandom I know about (otherwise fandom_wank would not exist). It's also valid for RL, as many have pointed out. I remember while I was still in high school how I looked forward to becoming an adult so that I could get away from all the bull&h!t backstabbing high school clique mentalities...I used to think, when I would read or see stories with people acting like petulant jerks, "Adults don't act that way." And lo and behold, they do. But thank goodness there *are* people who recognize that we need to behave like decent human beings if we want people to treat each other like decent human beings. :)

Date: 2008-05-08 05:29 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
we need to behave like decent human beings if we want people to treat each other like decent human beings.

Exactly. A little more tolerance, a little more consideration. That's all it takes. We are all here for the Pirate!Love.

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Date: 2008-05-07 09:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elizabeth perry (from livejournal.com)
This post is awesome like Keira Knightley's breasts. (To this day, one of the best ways I know of fixing a bad day is to put on the Knightley and Davenport commentary from CotBP -- "Just look at my cleavage!")

Date: 2008-05-07 10:38 pm (UTC)
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (steve and stephen)
From: [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com
Me too! It is the bestest, and how I fell in love with both Keira Knightley and Jack Davenport. 'I'd just like to point out here that the breasts are actually smaller than at any other point in the film.' 'I was reading about naval history, I didn't have time to go fannying about on a RIDE!'

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From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-05-08 05:26 am (UTC) - Expand

OT, in praise of my Mama

Date: 2008-05-07 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladymora.livejournal.com
Mama, you are a treasure. And what makes me happy is how, with your fannish love, so very many people can share your beauty and goodness, so many can experience it and appreciate it, beyond the small group of family and RL relationships that have always known you and valued you for those traits. I'm glad you've found a larger community with whom to spread your light.

You are the mama, the peacemaker, the nurturer, and it is inspiring and awing to see that reflected as a part of you outside of RL family and mama-hood. It's really who YOU are, and it's special to me to get to see that from the outside, as it were, in addition to being your daughter.

Fandom has been an incredible way for you to express yourself, and I'm so glad that you found it, and I'm glad of all these people, online and off, who are your friends: who can know you and care for you and be a community for enjoyment and support. And with the same blithe goodness that you show to us, your family, you are, I can see, an incredible boon to that community as well.

I love you, mama.

Re: OT, in praise of my Mama

Date: 2008-05-08 05:24 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Mother & Child - Klimt)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
Heavens, you sweet thing you. Good thing there was no one in my office when I got this in my email.

I love you, too.

*massive hugs*

Date: 2008-05-07 10:42 pm (UTC)
captaintish: (Jack Sparrow)
From: [personal profile] captaintish
I totally agree with all you said. When I first discovered fanfiction, and fandom on the internet, it was a real revelation -- hey there's other people like me!!! Obsessed with fictional people who live in fictional places. It's nice, knowing others of my kind. :)

I don't know what kerfluffles are going on out there right now, that prompted this post, but I too agree with Thumper's dad.

And what LadyMora just said, right above -- she's right -- you rock!

Date: 2008-05-08 05:22 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
It's nice, knowing others of my kind. :)

Amen to that! I never had RL friends who were into the same things as me. Thank God for the internet!

My daughter is too too sweet. I was at work when I got that, and went all teary-eyed.

Date: 2008-05-08 04:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] felaine.livejournal.com
Dang, sounds like some serious hair-pulling and ankle-biting going on.

Your daughter's post is such a loving tribute, and true for those like me who have been lucky enough to know you via fandom.

My fandom loves started with TV Zorro, perhaps a bit before your time. Also had a major thing for Paladin.

We are so showing our age to these kiddies ;(
Felaine

Date: 2008-05-08 05:20 am (UTC)
ext_15536: Fuschias by Geek Mama (Default)
From: [identity profile] geekmama.livejournal.com
Zorro! Holy Cats I adored Zorro!!! Totally forgot. And Spin and Marty -- wow, I loved them to death. And there are so many more. I've been a fangirl forever, it seems.

My daughter is such a doll. Got that at work, and was all teary-eyed.

We are so showing our age to these kiddies ;(

Ain't it the truth -- and yet I'm not so sure I want to go back. Lose a little weight, maybe, but not go back, no. *g*
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